Recently we've been through quite a quiet period in terms of competition in Manchester. We had JP Travel's 118 service launching an every 20 minute frequency between Piccadilly, Moston and North Manchester General Hospital, causing First to modify their 51 service to directly compete with it, but apart from that and Ashall's Coaches having a brief dalliance on the 263 Manchester - Altrincham service, not much has occurred, competition-wise in the last year.
That is, until this month when GM Buses (that'll be UK North pointlessly using another name then) increased their prescence on the 192 route with a bus every 5 minutes between Manchester and Stepping Hill Hospital Monday-Saturday and introducing Sunday journeys too. Bear in mind that Stagecoach was previously running a bus every 3-4 minutes on this route and there's now a frequency of something like evry 2-3 minutes on the 192. Competition is fierce between the companies and the stop outside Spar on Piccadilly in the city centre is chocablock with buses trying to pick up passengers all day. Meanwhile, UK North/GM Buses/whatever they call themselves next complain about Stagecoach allegedly blocking stops so they can't pick up passengers and both companies launch ultra-cheap loyalty tickets providing a week's travel on the route for a pittance.
Of course, this can't go on forever. The numbers don't add up, you can't run that many buses forever on a route unless they're picking up a healthy number of passengers. Whilst it does provide an amazingly frequent service for people travelling down the A6 while it lasts it shows up the other extreme of the problem with privatised bus services. While I'm in one part of Manchester struggling with too few buses, another part of Manchester has too many!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
15 comments:
nice blog......the buses are terrible in manchester.and when you compare them to other european cities they look even worse.manchester is such a small place as well that it wouldn`t take many routes to cover the whole city.ally that with integrated ticketing,more pre-pay and frankly we`d be laughing.we need a `transport for manchester`,a change in the law to allow gmpta/gmpte or the city council to specify services (routes and frequencies).......
i live in fallowfield on wilmslow road.the bus journey into town should be simple and quick......but there is too much traffic,or i have a certain weekly pass so i have to ignore one/two/three/four and more buses that are going to where i want to go, or the bus is old and decrepit, or the bus driver is moody/unco-operative,or because of the lack of pre-pay,ten people get on and they take ages...................to get on and pay, a problem exacerbated by different fares and NO fare information until you get on....
and those are just some of the problems on a route where at the very least there is a frequent service.something will go `wrong` or be nowhere near as smooth as it should be on EVERY trip.
one last example,if i want to go to chorlton from fallowfield down wilbraham road, the stagecoach buses are every half-hour(ok-so i have a stagecoach pass then - nine pounds!!which i can`t use on any other bus remember)but then after six it isn`t stagecoach,so i have to pay again,and the bus is then every hour which is near useless in bus terms.it`s such a simple cross-trip that is rendered near impossible to make unless you have a car....and there must be hundreds of examples like this all over the greater manchester area.i could go on....and i will at some point.....because a great transport system would not be an over-complicated or overly expensive thing to implement and would have untold social,economic and environmental benefits.
Manchester’s seeing renewed competition – try this:
http://omnibuses.blogspot.com/2006/04/more-on-manchester.html
and
http://omnibuses.blogspot.com/2006/04/old-fashioned-war.html
The current debate within road based transport is – should the service be re-regulated or not? Those for re-regulation very much cite the arguments put forward in the comment by “transport for Manchester”. Those against (largely bus operators) state that if you could give the bus the roadspace it needs, you don’t need re-regulation. Both sides have their points. It will be interesting to see the government’s response. It’s likely to be a so-called “third way” approach, between the two extremes. This may well sort out issues of your having to let four buses pass on the Wilmslow Road to await the one with the colour of your choice. But it may no.
Whichever line you take, the bus service in Manchester is actually good. There are three free Metroshuttles, both Stagecoach and First between them have invested millions in fleet and many of the smaller operators’ buses are quality vehicles, too. There’s been an integrated bus (also multi-modal) ticket in Manchester for years – now called the Bus Saver, available on *all* services. You can therefore chose Stagecoach’s cheaper ticket or, for flexibility, the Bus Saver.
The Wilmslow Road to which you refer has more buses along it than perhaps any corridor outside London. There’s a choice of operator, vehicle quality and fares. Remember, fares are still an important issue. But like all other services and goods for sale, we as passengers lack perfect information on the relative strengths and weaknesses of each product.
Busing, I agree with you about buses in Manchester being generally good. There isn't *that* much to complain about when compared to West Yorkshire where First and Arriva seem to be hellbent on ruining any idea of integrated transport by cutting services left, right and centre. There are places in inner-city Bradford where soon you won't be able to get a bus after 8.30pm on a Sunday!
The problem in Manchester is the vast difference in services across parts of the city. As Transport for Manchester states, the service between Fallowfield and Chorlton is very poor, and my previous post about about the crazy frequencies on the 41 service shows up another weak area.
You could argue that Wilmslow Road has a brilliant service if you have a System One ticket and I agree. However, I would still say there are too many buses on that corridor that could be moved on to other areas to improve their service. I have been on many Wilmslow Road buses carrying no more than 10 passengers at a time, with the next bus just a minute or two behind at most. With tighter regulation of frequencies this wouldn't be so much of a problem.
It's a difficult debate but I think we'll probably see that 'third way'/compromise being introduced at some point in the future.
Thank you for the links to the articles too, very interesting!
hi, TfM again...
the problem with the system one card is that it costs 13.50, near enough making two journeys per day every day for a week to make it viable and i think that is too much.
i think the best bus system,however it`s regulated or not is one where a passenger is able to get the first bus that comes along that is going to where that passenger is going.not choose between two,three,or four.
in london,crucially when the mayor was given respnsibility for transport they got highway authorities as well which has contributed partly to the growth in bus travel.(red routes etc,imperfect - i know but at least they are trying!)
the buses in london are still operated by stagecoach,arriva etc and although they make half the money per passenger per km (something like that!),bus ridership is at its highest since the 1960`s and doesn`t look as though it will be declining anytime soon.......so if anything the specification of more routes,higher frequencies,newer buses,oystercards by transport for london AND the higher public subsidy has and will mean maybe slightly lower revenue for the bus companies, that revenue will be for longer and more certain.after all, stagecoach etc are still bidding for these routes in the capital aren`t they? the money they make may even be higher long-term,public and private money truly working together.meanwhile the passenger can get the first bus and have some chance of making it all over the city within two or three trips and the city itself benefits from at least a brake on too much traffic and the population without cars (for whatever reason) can feel economically and socially included.free bus travel for over-60`s is a great idea! now all they need is a bus system worthy of that kind of thinking.don`t forget, manchester is tiny compared to london which has 700 or so bus routes.a fraction of that would cover manchester.......
May I just cast our collective minds back to Manchester pre-deregulation? I was there only once so I can’t comment whether the PTE owned bus company system was better or worse than the perceived fragmentation, we have today.
All I can do is ask some questions:
1. Was the pre-dereg system better than it is now? To answer, you need to consider fares, frequencies, relative vehicle quality and age, ease of use, whether the PTE had to consider cuts.
2. Were there fewer or more complaints?
3. Were the rate payers paying more in subsidy than now (in percentage terms, ignoring inflation)?
Do we or our politicians tend to place pre-deregulation on a pedestal?
I was 8 years old and living in Bradford in 1986 so I can't comment on Manchester pre-deregulation. However, I see comparing any future re-regulation to 'the old days' is less useful in my mind than comparing it to the current London situation. Transport For London in combination with the Mayor's office do a brilliant job in the capital and it would be great to see that replicated in Manchester.
Staying fully deregulated and working to reduce congestion (as some bus operators have suggested) is one thing but, as 'Transport for Manchester' says, it's the fully integrated approach in London that creates the best solution in my mind.
Yes, Martin, it seems to me that Manchester has a good bus network.
Tfm – London’s trying to ensure that no one operator has more than (I think) 25% of the market. That will be tested, as the number of bids per contract continues to decline.
Personally, I prefer to remain neutral in the debate over full re-regulation/full deregulation/third way. I think that there are points for and against each approach.
I don’t know Manchester very well, having been there perhaps 10 times in all. In the case of the 41 (is that the Wilmslow Road service?) and 192, one of dereg’s strengths is that it has spawned greater choice and lower fares. So, on the 192, you go for quality [Stagecoach with new vehicles] or cost [GM Buses or Stagecoach’s own Magic Bus]. A weakness is that this hasn’t spread across the city.
Another is that there’s no guarantee the choice will last. Just think what might happen to the Stagecoach £9 ticket without competition. It would be at or nearer the System 1 price.
On some other corridors, though, you have quality v. quality (e.g. Finglands, Bullocks, Bluebird, Mayne, Stagecoach, First - all have invested in modern vehicles.
I’ve no idea about pre-dereg frequencies in Gtr Manchester but I would guess that in overall terms, few services have been reduced significantly (if at all), since dereg, though there will be those who will know better. This means that if you don’t wish to invest in a GMPTE all-operator ticket for routes such as the Wilmslow Rd, individual companies own tickets provide better value for money but still with reasonable frequencies. In a sense, is not the true cost of a pass the GMPTE rate, with individual operators providing a lower rate to get loyalty?
Re-regulation presupposes that the PTE could use resources saved in so-called wasteful competition to improve other, non-core/non-radial services (or improve evening/Sundays generally – but when fewer travel).
This is a compelling argument *if* the PTE can do this at no additional cost. But can it? It’s likely that influencing fares and frequencies will bear a cost on the tax payer. London is the prime example. The spend per head on London’s public transport is something like 5 times the average for urban Britain. Then there’s the issue of so-called political “interference” and how this is regulated.
To achieve in Manchester what London’s achieved, you can expect a bill. That won’t present a problem if resources are available and there’s a clear choice for people to make a decision. Remember, though, that 85% of services, possibly 90%, operate *without* direct public support at the moment. Once you start getting political control, the commercial percentage will decrease and the subsidised element will increase.
And may be those living on the Wilmslow Rd or the 192 may be slightly aggrieved if their bus services are actually cut by politicians who say that the buses should be rationed, or reduced to a more “reasonable” level, to improve servies elsewhere.
I must've missed my point, which simply was... some call for more PTE control of buses but was it so good at the time (pre-1986)?
hiya....tfm again...nick by the way
just a couple of quick `yeah buts...`
wilmslow road and stockport road would still retain a high frequency of buses under `my way`.you`d just be able to get the first bus that comes along.(without the hassle of running two buses down to catch finglands/stagecoach/gm buses/uk north/bullocks)
yes,wilmslow road and stockport road have a lot of buses,but try getting anywhere else simply,reliably and quickly.manchester has a lot more roads than those two.
and even wilmslow road is rarely simple,reliable and quick.and yes it is cheap using megabus or finglands and others but they cover a tiny proportion of the city.and i could pay cash each time but decreasing cash transactions is a vital part in speeding up bus journeys and hopefully making them more attractive.
yes,i`m advocating public subsidy,but hopefully with an eye to the benefits.i don`t mean it to be mindless pouring of cash down a black hole.i think business would benefit with vastly increased mobility of labour and the mobility of people to shop! and the wider community just benefits hugely i think simply from knowing that travel over the city is a matter of a couple (or maybe three) simple,integrated bus trips(sod it, build a tube network!).
one other benefit would be for visitors/tourists.they would turn up and there would be a simpler,co-ordinated network in front of them.
why not install an oystercard system here,compatible with london`s (nice one london, for trialling it and sorting out the bugs) then visiting london,get out at euston and your manchester pre-pay oystercard works seamlessly.or vice-versa.
sorry if all this is a bit scattergun but nice one for the debate....
ps, buses are are a great public transport option,they`re the cheapest (compared to tram,rail,tube etc).they`re extremely flexible,you can add,take away or modify a bus route instantly.try doing that with a railway......people think buses are bad,well.....bad buses are.
hi, couple more things.
don`t forget the buses in london are still operated by private companies.it`s probably a lot cheaper than full on regulation.
i think that public money HAS to be spent ruthlessly efficiently.and that regulation or part regulation can be done badly or well.efficiently or wastefully.
hello martin, nick here again,just wanted to add a couple of things.i agree with you about the 41 service.also, the stagecoach 41 stops at around seven o`clock leaving you having to (if you have a stagecoach pass)buy an extra ticket. i need to travel to sale and chorlton a lot from fallowfield and finglands don`t go to chorlton so i get a stagecoach pass and so i kinda have to make sure i get back from sale before a certain time and so on.you constantly come up against these limitations in manchester.
you`re right about the time it takes to get from sale to the city centre.even outside of peak time it can seem interminable.(the stagecoach 41 goes all the way to altrincham and that is even worse)i guess less cars would help.and wilmslow road has to have a simplified route sytem/structure certainly.i think you`re right,it needs less buses! perhaps just a couple of routes,one to east didsbury/stockport and one to northenden/sale.it would be quicker to run buses up princess parkway from northenden but i think the route up wilmslow road is important for university/mri access.the only way i reckon to improve the journey time at peak time would be less cars,especially on wilmslow/palatine/northenden/sale roads.journey times can be excruciatingly slow as well closer to town.although a better,more integrated service would at least make the journey more pleasant.
i`m not sure the debate isn`t about regulation vs de-reg vs re-reg.but de-reg (the de-reg we have in manc) hasn`t (i don`t think)provided a good enough service,so there has to be some element of regulation.regulation has to be done well is what i`m trying to say i think!
In response to some of the comments in relation to the effct of re-regulation on the Wilmslow Road route, I wonder who are the mythical passengers 'who have to' watch 4 buses pass before they can board a number 42? Like everyone, they have a choice between the convenience of a System 1 ticket and the cheaper single operator tickets. Applying the TfL model would see this element of choice removed. The only option for passengers in London is the more expensive option. I would also question the logic of reducing the number of services on the basis that buses are running below capacity. If the bus industry is to attract the driver out of his car, then they will not do so by running infrequent , overcrowded services. Rather it will happen when the car driver sees the bus as on a par with the comfortable of his car but without the stress of having to drive.
in london,oystercards are cheap.between 7am and 9.30am the flat fare on the bus is 1 pound and at all other times is 80p. and oyster is capped daily,if you just travel on the buses it`s capped at 3 pounds.anything above that is free.
if you don`t have an oystercard then the walk-up cash single fare is 1.50 which is steep.although again that is a flat fare which on a lot of london routes can take you a long way.also the one-day bus pass is 3.50 which covers pretty much the whole of london (up to and including zone 6 i think) and that is a vast area
there has been a concerted effort in london via oystercards,ticket machines at bus stops,a simpler fare structure,ticket outlets in many newsagents(it was easy to add cash to my pre-pay oystercard and you can get many,if not all of the different types of travelcard/bus pass in them) and cashless (all too true!) buses to speed up boarding.which hopefully speeds up journey times and makes helps to make buses a more attractive option.i don`t think there would have been quite the effort or resultant improvements with a manchester type of system in place.i don`t think i`ve read or heard someone say about london buses,`lets go back to pre-tfl de-regulation`.
my point about letting buses go was this.if i have a stagecoach pass and i`m waiting to go into town from fallowfield up wilmslow road then i effectively have to use a stagecoach bus.if a finglands/uk north/r bullock/gm buses goes past (often it`s least one of another company)then that was a bus going to where i wanted to go before the bus i `can` take.on wilmslow road you can routinely see passengers letting a bus go for the one they want. ok, so say i have a stagecoach pass and there a lot of buses and routes by stagecoach.but not the whole city.and if i choose one of the other operators` tickets then their city coverage is a lot less.if i want to get to chorlton,sale and the city centre then it`s either a stagecoach pass or a system one. as i`ve already said i think the system one is too expensive,a more reasonable weekly ticket for manchester with its size would be something like 8 or 9 pounds which would be top if you could you use it on every single one of manchester`s buses on their current routes,even without increasing their number or frequency.i don`t think wimslow road should have a reduction,if at all in frequencies by the way.just more streamlined and integrated.
a system one card is still an integrated and very good way of travelling on manchester`s buses.and it is something introduced by gmpte,not by the individual private companies.it would be great if the system one card came down in price.it would solve a lot of the problems i`m talking about(i`d still like all the buses painted the same though - it justs looks better!).
also the success or otherwise of a weekly ticket still doesn`t address issues of low frequencies(hourly down wilbraham road in the evening from chorlton to fallowfield/longsight - how can that helpful for the health of a city goddammit!)or in some cases no frequencies or other problems..........
more effective public control is essential if a public transport network can truly flourish because it takes into account a broader view of a cities` needs than one based largely,if not wholly on profits or profit margins.i believe in many things being left to a `free` market,especially if is truly free.but public transport ain`t one of them.even in a truly free market there might not be the degree of integration or high frequency of buses or extensive network that a public body could specify(either ran by itself or like tfl,tendering and specifying contracts).and even then you`d have to sit and wait around for the market to get to that good state of affairs.whereas a public body with teeth could do it a lot quicker! and yeah of course,use that higher subsidy and power efficiently.kind of up to us to make sure our democratic representatives do so........
thanks for letting me add my comments martin,i won`t add any more to this one,i don`t want to treat it like my personal bus blog.i could go on but if i do,i`ll start my own!
Regulation...I think not!
Just a quick note for me to remind/inform the many enthusiasts and interested persons on this blog that regulation is not the answer. Before de-regulation there were more buses in manchester and indeed more buses going into the piccadilly gardens stops and the old bus station than the amount that are trying in vain to get into manchester today. So why cant these buses get into manchester easily?is it the fault of a smaller bus company trying to break a stagecoach monopoly by gaining ground on profitable routes or is it indeed the fault of Manchester Council and GMPTE, who have repeatedly cut up the city centre bus stops and roads for 'regeneration' therefore reducing the number of stops and roadspace whilst also refusing to add more bus lanes to the roads of greater manchester to after all encourage what whitehall has been banging on about for years; a good public transport system and less emmissions from our cars! Lets not blame the smaller bus companies guys! lets accept that they have a right to atleast attempt to break the monopoly stagecoach has. Afterall we do agree that stagecoach's constant rises in prices are way above inflation and frankly far to expensive! so let a smaller company have a go and see what we get. Lets not be so British and back the winner. Back the underdog for a change! Regards
Observant Onlooker, A Bus Near You
annonymous, can i just correct you that First are actually DEARER than Stagecoach in terms of single AND weekly tickets. AND they have constantly cut services in North Manchester/Salford/Bolton/Wigan to maximise profits. and hwat services they have got left are shambolic. where i live is First dominated, and my neighbours want Stagecoach to give them a run for their money, but Stagecoach won't. and yes i work for stagecoach
Post a Comment